Friend of mine on Facebook included me on a note of a recent debate he had regarding the Arizona bill. I left out all names. In orange is from someone who opposes the bill and in black text are the responses from my friend articulating points that favor the law.
I love the fact that people are boycotting all things Arizona..including the tea(which is from New York for the unknowing)
Protesting on the behalf of those who break the law. Only in the liberal mind does that make sense.
Sorry man but it is the sheep that follow the liberals that think it makes sense…The Libs just like the continued growth of their moronic base
Except for the fact that they’re already detaining American citizens, born in America, for not having proof of citizenship. The “reasonable suspicion?” Being hispanic. When are they going to ask us all for our “papers, please?”
And nobody’s protesting on behalf of people who’ve broken the law, they’re protesting on behalf of Americans who’ve done nothing wrong. The #2 country of origin for illegal immigration to the US? Ireland. They, by nature of the statute, have to ask EVERYBODY for their papers. Sitting on a park bench? Papers, please. Sittin’ in yer house? Papers, please. Riding on the bus, washing your car, gettin’ your groceries… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maus
Interesting rebuttals; let’s address and examine the points at issue and set aside for a moment using wikipedia as a primary source and the false parallel to Gestapo tactics that you used to buttress your points.
What is the issue that motivated the creation of the law? The issue is illegal immigration and the impact that it has on the borders, language, culture, and resources of the US.
Why was the law created? Due to a failure of the federal government in enforcing its’ duties as enumerated in the constitution (provide for the common defense, ensure domestic tranquility, etc). Also as enumerated in the constitution is the fact that anything not expressly forbidden to the states by the federal government, it falls on the state to regulate.
Lastly, as defined by article 4 section 4 of the constitution, the AZ law is fully justified under the reasoning provided by that article. So now that we’ve established the constitutional basis for the law, let’s move on to the civil liberties issues you bring up.
Your assessment of the flaw in the law is that it requires everyone to prove their eligibility to be in the US legally as well as an assertion that this law creates a disparate impact to the Hispanic community.
Let’s address the civil liberty issue first. Civil liberties apply to all of those citizens (in a generic sense) who have a legal foundation to exist within a defined set of borders. The legal foundation is the key; if you are here illegally you do not get in a broad sense the civil liberties guaranteed to those who are legally here.
The second part of the issue is determining who is actually supposed to be here. That’s where the proof of identity (et.al) comes in. This applies to everyone equally. I see no problem at all with having to require proof of identity for all citizens in order to determine status.
Your claim that the law unfairly targets a specific group of people is unfounded since there has been no evidence of that taking place. The law actually has a mechanism for redress of any issues within it as well. Furthermore, the law applies to all residents equally when there is probably cause not reasonable suspicion.
When you examine the things that this law is attempting to do, it really boils down to attempting to act in response to the failure of the federal government. Since 9/11 there have been over 30k murders committed by illegal aliens (borderpatrol.org) and vast numbers of additional “lesser” crimes. In their efforts to provide for the domestic tranquility of their citizens, each and every state in the union should enact similar laws to enforce their immigration policy.
If you think that this law is harsh, take a look at any nation in the world and examine what they do to secure their borders, language, culture, and resources. Furthermore, take a look at how Mexico enforces their southern border against people trying to gain illegal entry and examine what Mexico requires before you can get LEGAL residence in the country.
BTW-here are the realities of how the law is implemented:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/opinion/29kobach.html
Not that it will shift the left wing narrative…
well argued. Let’s talk about a couple of your errors:
“I see no problem at all with having to require proof of identity for all citizens in order to determine status.”
Do you currently carry your proof of citizenship? There’s a difference between what’s accepted as “identity” and “citizenship.” A driver’s license, commonly accepted as identity, is not the same as proof of citizenship or resident alien status. Are we all now supposed to carry our passports? What about people who don’t have passports? Are we all now supposed to carry our birth certificates? If you’re advocating for a national ID card, it’s an excellent point and I’ll agree with you there, it’s just that conservatives have traditionally argued against any sort of national ID:http://www.house.gov/paul/press/press99/pr101599.htm . I , for one, am one of the few liberals who sees no probably with photo ID to vote – let’s just cross that hurdle as soon as possible and get on with our lives. However, which do you prefer – National ID or no National ID?
” Furthermore, the law applies to all residents equally when there is probably cause not reasonable suspicion.” This is false – this law and many others specifically cite “reasonable suspicion.” As a law enforcement tactic itself, it’s fairly effective – probable cause should NOT be required of police officers to do their duty effectively – if we had probable cause as the standard, cops wouldn’t even be able to ask for directions, let alone ask them for identification. “Reasonable Suspicion” is a reasonable tactic most of the time, but I don’t think it’s reasonable here. What would engender a cop’s “reasonable suspicion” about an ordinary person walking down the sidewalk? Freckles? A shirt that says “Guinness?”
And that’s one of the points – I, as an American citizen, am affected by this law. If I stop for gas in Arizona, I am subject to an unreasonable and unlawful detention if I’m not carrrying my Arizona ID card or whatever they determine is proof. I’m not concerned about extending the rights of citizenship to illegal immigrants, I’m concerned about keeping MY rights of citizenship.
“If you think that this law is harsh, take a look at any nation in the world and examine what they do to secure their borders, language, culture, and resources”
Okay, Japan, for example. Island nation, easy to secure, but I was never, once, asked for my passport except at the airport. Nor do they stop Japanese people on the street and ask them for their birth certificates. Next? France. Checked at entry, never again. England – checked at entry, never again. Germany, checked at entry, never again, and I bet it’s VERY difficult to ask Joe German “Your papers, please?” Taiwan, Korea, The People’s Republic of frickin’ CHINA, never stopped on the street and asked for my papers. And Mexico neither checks at entry (granted, US Border) or on the street.
“Your claim that the law unfairly targets a specific group of people is unfounded since there has been no evidence of that taking place…”
Nice try, thank you for playing: http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html
But that’s not the point – the point is that they can stop YOU, or Rick, or Carrie, or me, or any other American and ask for your papers. Just cuz. What if you’re 11 and walking to school?
” Since 9/11 there have been over 30k murders committed by illegal aliens” Nice figure, what’s your source? I can’t find that anywhere, and “borderpatrol.org” is a squatter site. Actually, I can find that figure in a lot of places, but I don’t click on Stormfront links.
If that’s indeed the case, then why is crime in Arizona (except for drug kidnappings) down since 9/11?http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=crime+in+AZ
Then why is violent crime down in Arizona since 9/11?
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=violent+crime+in+AZ
If that’s indeed the case, then why didn’t GWB enable this law when he was the Governor of Texas? Or ask for it when he was President? Why hasn’t Rick Perry or Arnold Schwarzenegger or Jeb Bush or Charlie Crist advocated for these laws?
It’s because they understand that liberties extended to American citizens cannot be revoked for real or imagined threats.
Nothing scares me so much that I’m going to leave behind the things that I swore to serve.
I read Kobach’s op-ed. Interesting that he builds the strawman about how people opposed to this are interested in relaxing illegal immigration enforcement. I’m not, actually interested in this, because illegal immigrants are an unprotected underclass, a danger to commerce and overwhelmingly victims of crimes that they cannot report. I *am,* however interested in unreasonable intrusions into my liberty, and my failure to produce an AZ driver’s license to an AZ cop will, under the law, be illegal. He doesn’t seem to care about the restrictions this will cause, and his laughable assertion that a state legislature is at the front lines of anything is almost enough to disregard the op-ed in its entirety.
But what he does say effectively is that we should legislate away our rights through fear. I vociferously disagree.
I’ll hand the cudgel over to a Republican, who is a little more direct in his condemnation and colorful in his speech: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/95123-mack-r-compares-ariz-law-to-nazi-germany
Rick pointed out that folks can be stupid when they get wrapped around the axle about things – a point I agree with wholeheartedly.
Before I address those “errors” you point out let me establish what I see as real immigration reform. Bear in mind that this is coming from a naturalized 1st generation immigrant, not some “crazy, racist, kook-fringe, right winger” as the left labels those who support this law (not say that you fall into the same category [just defining the narrative]).
For legitimate occur the following issues must be addressed: 1) Reform can only occur once both the northern and southern borders are secure, 2) the plan must include a provision for the repatriation of illegals to their native lands, 3) it must include the creation of a national ID card which establishes both citizenship and identity 4) it must include a difficult path for illegals to obtain legal residence 5) it must create severe penalties for employers who hire illegals 6) it must create and enforce severe penalties for those who circumvent the immigration laws and 7) for those who do not abide by the provisions to obtain legal status, deportation is the only recourse. These steps will solve the issue of immigration once and for all if there is the political will to execute the plan.
Unfortunately, both parties gain from maintaining the status quo. Democrats have a vast pool of undocumented voters to exploit and Republicans (and their big business allies [who also support Democrats in this fashion]) have a pool of extremely cheap labor to exploit. As a result of these dynamics, as well as the Fabian Socialist principles which drive both parties, nothing will every truly be addressed in any meaningful sense. When the author of the NYT article states “people opposed to this are interested in relaxing illegal immigration enforcement”, he is basing that assessment on these underlying principles and thus is not making a straw man argument.
In your analysis of the NYT article it is interesting to note how you rail against legislating out of fear when the crux of your argument is based on an unfounded fear of losing your civil liberties due to unlawful search and seizure. The criteria for establishing that standard has long been established in case law from Terry v Ohio (1967) going forward. Furthermore you cite that the “reasonable suspicion” standard is too vague as the central premise for making the leap to the conclusion that all sorts of inane possibilities could occur due to abuse. Is that possible in any real sense if unencumbered by law? Yes. Is it realistic? No.
Case law establishes what constitutes reasonable suspicion as well in Ornelas v US (1996), Illinois v Gates (1983), Illinois v Lidster (2004), and Florida v Royer (1983) just to name a few. I would encourage you to examine those in detail prior to running off into the fire swamps screaming about your rights being taken away. There is a clearly defined standard which establishes what is and is not appropriate behavior.
“Errors” Assessment-
I think I sufficiently addressed the issues you brought out except for the remaining items of crimes by illegal aliens and how other nations address legal and illegal immigration.
Let’s take a look at the crime issue first. You said that you are not aware of the data on the number/volume of crimes committed by illegal aliens (specifically the murder number that I cited and you question the reliability of the source) and then cite two statistics which point to overall crime and violent crime declining in the state as evidence to support your point. Unfortunately the statistics you cite don’t disprove my overall point. You can have crime drop as an overall statistic and still have demographics show increases in total quantity and percentages within that larger measurement.
If you want to get the scope of crimes committed by the illegal alien community, take a look at the following (you can also go to the FBI database and statistics on the federal prison population to draw the same conclusions):
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/1738432/posts
http://www.usillegalaliens.com
/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime_summary.html
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?article_id=53103
Hopefully, those sources along with the primary sources embedded in them meet your discerning criteria.
The second “error” that you point out was regarding immigration policy of other nations. You cite your personal experience traveling to various nations as evidence to the contrary to rebut my point. I have traveled to many of those nations and have had a similar experience as you have but that does not disprove my point.
You are engaging in a weak analogy logical fallacy to state your case. Furthermore you are drawing on evidence from a tiny sample size to come to a conclusion that isn’t supported by evidence. Lastly, the circumstances you describe are under the umbrella of immigration but you completely missed the distinction I was making. You equated your experience as a traveler to those countries, with the requirements for legal residence in those countries. That comparison is vastly different.
The following are links to immigration policies and consequences for non-compliance for various nations:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,584741,00.html
http://www.debito.org/permres.html
http://www.mexperience.com/liveandwork/immigration.htm
As you review those, hopefully you glean the difference between life as a tourist and life as a semi-permanent or permanent resident.
Staying with the theme of how illegal immigrants are treated, you may be interested to read about how Mexico treats those that illegally encroach on their borders.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/uc/20100428/cm_uc_crmmax/op_1913861
http://veracitystew.com/2010/04/29/amnesty-international-mexico-has-its-own-problems-with-illegal-immigration/